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    Author Topic: Force Dynamics 401cr  (Read 3827 times)
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    Ensonic
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    « Reply #15 on: January 02, 2012, 08:48:33 PM »

    You are invited everytime you like :-) Bring a pack of vanilla fla and I am happy  yep where in th eNetherlands are you from?
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    Dentykaffalatta
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    « Reply #16 on: January 02, 2012, 10:03:18 PM »

    I'm in Canada!! Speedyk is in Switzerland and I'm hoping he will hop into his car and go check it out and tell us what he thinks.
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    ShinyAndy
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    « Reply #17 on: January 03, 2012, 10:51:30 AM »

    No I haven't driven any wobbly seat. I might for a laugh if I get the chance but I can tell you now I won't like it.

    I really don't understand how you can say you won't like it without trying it first! Grin I think you have the wrong idea about the way it works perhaps. As Ensonic has explained here, and before, it really is nothing like a wobbly seat! Have you driven a proper race car on a track in real life? If so I assume you will be aware of the fact that your head and parts of your body move in relation to what is going on - you brake hard and your legs/feet push against the pedals, your head is forced forward and even when in a six point harness your body/internal bits still moves forward. You accelerate hard and in a good car your arms are pulled away from the steering wheel, your feet away from the pedals and your head and body forced backwards, things like grabbing the next gear become hard work and with hard cornering your knees get sore from bracing yourself against the bodywork

    The seat motion not only simulates those forces but also adds things like vibrations that you get from the road that you would also get from a real car. I think people forget sometimes that these "simulators" are supposed to simulate real cars, there is no way most people could get in a F1/LM/GT car and just drive it flat out around a circuit like they think they can with a sim - it makes me laugh when people demo our motion rig and want to drive a F1 car first, they take it out and within 5 minutes they've had enough of spinning out/being shaken to pieces and their arms aching and ask for something gentle like a FWD Mini to potter around in.

    My goal is realism through sensation, whenever we turn the motion off on the seat and the sensation is purely through the "high end" wheel and pedals we have then it ends up feeling like I'm playing Pole Position on an Atari console. Put the motion on and it transforms it into a proper simulator that knackers me out/even scares me a little just like it does when a I take a decent race car out on a circuit for real
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    Ensonic
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    « Reply #18 on: January 03, 2012, 02:33:46 PM »

    @Petrolmania,

    oh , sorry, I thought I have read that you visited Tysmyster a while back, and so I thought, you are also located there in the Netherlands  yep
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    Remco Hitman
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    « Reply #19 on: January 03, 2012, 02:36:30 PM »

    No, I don't need to try it because 30 seconds of youtube footage is enough to recognise the flaws in the FREX type units.
    As soon as the seat starts moving all around, which it should never do, it becomes blatantly obvious that something is very wrong here.
    What I see is little more than a seat that's come loose and that's exactly what it would feel like to me.
    It falls to the left in righthanders, falls away under acceleration and even pushes me head-first towards the steering wheel under braking!
    I sincerely wonder what makes 99% of the viewers instantly want to ORDER NOW! CLICK HERE TO PAY!

    My biggest gripe is that the seat moves in relation to the wheel, pedals and monitor/windscreen. You're basically destroying the structural integrity of your cockpit.
    It is of the utmost importance to me that everything is 100% rigid and almost overtightened as it were.
    For me, at least, this kind of physical feedback will never be enough to negate the drawback of having seat, wheel and monitor move independently from one another.

    Of course I understand G-forces and I think it is cool that we have techniques available to emulate them.
    The problem with either Force Dynamics and Frex type motion is that both will provide but a fraction of the desired forces.
    FD comes closer in that respect but feels more like a bucking bronco that a race car, while the Frex has more finesse but yields limited sustained G-forces.
    Even if you'd see 10 degrees of roll on your rig, which I think is a LOT, then you're still only talking about, what, 0.1 sustained G?
    Cost and hassle make it hard for me to justify such a setup, particularly because the reasons for getting one all come with such great drawbacks.
    Others come to a different conclusion and that of course is perfectly valid as well.

    However, if you were to build a full-body harnass and hook servo-pulleys onto that, thén we would have G-force simulation I would be interested in! G-forces move the body, not the seat.
    It would involve three on either side (head, shoulder, thighs), one behind the head (along with a piston to push the head forward under braking and knock you out cold in a crash) and one underneath the seat. Electromagnets would act on metal inlays in the shoes to resist lifting your feet under negative G (heavy braking, bottom of Fuchsroehre or Eau Rouge).

    Yeah, thát would be something  excited
    « Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 02:39:22 PM by Remco Hitman » Logged

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    Remco Hitman
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    « Reply #20 on: January 03, 2012, 02:44:08 PM »

    You are invited everytime you like :-) Bring a pack of vanilla fla and I am happy  yep where in th eNetherlands are you from?



    Thank you, very kind. However, I hail from the very north of Holland and do not have a road-going car.
    A trip to Stuttgart isn't really on the cards unless I decide to go and visit the Porsche Museum. 936 #20 FTW!

    « Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 02:49:46 PM by Remco Hitman » Logged

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    Ensonic
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    « Reply #21 on: January 03, 2012, 03:48:17 PM »

    The invitation was for SpeedyK (who drives a 911 and could be interested in the museum in Zuffenhausen).

    One last try, I will never convince someone , who does not want to... The seat don't gets loose. It happened once while my Actuator drive pin broke. That undefined movement was really awful  Angry But you should not see the seat as moving. The simulator gives your body movement that it gets in real live. The seat must move to archives that effect, and it works. The moving seat looks funny, but it must to  do his job. Another job like in a real car, where it should hold you at one place. Here it's his job to give your body the movement , it has "on" the real seat. believe me, there many real world drivers that tested this seat movers, and all instantly felt at home. You must let your brain trick you, if you don't want to it does not work, but this is the same with our Mickey Mouse Monitors, Pedals and wheels most of us use. These feels toyish to, and if we wouldn't accept that we would get immersion there, too.
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    ShinyAndy
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    « Reply #22 on: January 03, 2012, 04:22:16 PM »

    My biggest gripe is that the seat moves in relation to the wheel, pedals and monitor/windscreen. You're basically destroying the structural integrity of your cockpit.

    I'm still missing your point! In real life the seat doesn't move but you move in relation to all you've mentioned and it doesn't destroy the integrity of your cockpit. Being strapped to a seat that gives you all the same sensations most definitely doesn't feel like the bolts have come undone on the seat  chuckle Trust me, you really should try one before coming to any conclusions - granted it may not be for you but your reasons for discounting it don't really make sense. All the real racers that try it at the trackdays are blown away with the realism, it just takes simulators up another level.
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    speedyK
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    « Reply #23 on: January 03, 2012, 08:28:38 PM »

    ^^^ It's endorsements from people like ShinyAndy (who has driven all manner of machines in real life on track) that make me want to try this despite my similar misgivings*.

    Believe me, ShinyAndy is anything but a technology freak (despite being an IT guru Grin ). I posted elsewhere about how 3D truly added another dimension for me in GT5. Yet he dismisses 3D as a headache-inducing "gimmick", so he's not easily impressed! If he thinks this "wobbly seat" stuff is realistic, it just might be...




    *though I do appreciate that the seat is NOT trying to create G-forces (which would need a NASA or Red Bull budget), but using the movement to suggest, to trick, to fool our bodies and brains into believing that there is more happening than really is. IIRC, it uses some clever ideas about loading of muscles and the feelings induced worked out for some Olympic training scheme – ShinyAndy probably has a link to explain it properly). If it works for pro drivers, and if my brain is happy to be "fooled" by 3D without any problems, then I'm hoping wobbly seats will work for me too.

    I need to work out when I'm taking hols yet and then start planning a visit to Ensonic   smile

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    Mayaman
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    « Reply #24 on: February 08, 2015, 09:57:31 AM »

    There are real self righteous and know it all folks on TWIP sometimes, I'll let you guess who they are lol.  Man, talk about inflated ego.
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